writing projects

[gkg]

...the work place would not be the same without us!

AMEN to that!!  

the shame in her case is that she evidently is a good teacher, i know she\'s a great painter, but they wouldn\'t give her more than just a temporary adjunct spot because she couldn\'t get credentialed.

[buswolley]

I agree:  MFA\'s are useless.  Time spent writing was good.  The degree\'s not much..

Unless you want to wax poetics, literally in this case, over an over pricy cup of coffee served by a kid named Skippy in an artsy fartsy coffee house.  Thrashing out the significance of an Aristotelian tragic hero as it relates or doesn't relate to modern day theatre (cinema), and how a western audience will not accept the confines of true tragic hero as defined by Aristotle.  Opting instead for the reluctant hero, thus nullifying and essentially killing true tragedy in our generation – but it better be a good f*cking cup of coffee...

[buswolley]

I\'ve been told if I want to teach, to get a Ph.d.  

Whoever you are talking to is not giving you good information.  MFA's are terminal degrees equal to PhD; something I remind my husband on a regular basis, I have the higher degree he never finished his Dissertation.  Anyway, it is true in most academia you will find many "Dr." looking down on MFA\'s, but don't let them scare you.  Most are self pretentious blowhards.  

I'm not sure what you teach; I can only assume it is English or Creative Writing.  While English is full of PhD's it can only look good to an Accreditation Committee to have MFA's on staff, demonstrating a well rounded faculty.  

If your Department Chair is pushing you to get your Doctorate, you may consider finding a new school!  My husband, with his lowly MA and ABD, is Dean of English and Humanities and currently the front runner for Senior Vice President at his college.  So don't ever let anyone say a Master's in not good in academia!  You're also published, so screw um!

[buswolley]

what does an artist without a degree do to make a living

One more and I promises I'll stop...

It only takes 18 hours of College work above and beyond an Undergraduate degree to actually teach.  But, most Colleges and Universities require a higher degree.  If you have 18 hours and can prove professional proficiency in your field, many junior colleges will look at you especially if there is a shortage of teachers in a field.  

However if none of the above is true, she should consider opening up a studio or finding an existing studio to teach at.  With government cuts fine arts are always the first to go.  So, there is a huge need for private teachers.  I get parents asking all the time where thier kid can take art lessons or theatre classes.  My son takes private guitar lessons, because the lack of music in school.  He has no talent at it, but we keep shoveling out the cash.  My Mother made her living for years teaching women how to Tole paint.  Even if you can't do it full time one or two nights a week will sometime satisfy the itch.  

One word to the wise, I taught for a year in high school, I now paint...  It takes a very special person to be a teacher.

[sarahd]

yes, an MFA is a terminal degree and qualifies one to teach at the University.  But in creative writing, the competition for good positions is so stiff (literally 100\'s of us going after the same few jobs each year), that its almost impossible.  Yes, publications help, but they also say, "No book, don\'t look".  That\'s not always true, yes, but its very, very competitive.  I\'ve been on the market now for more than four years, and have yet to land a tenure position (though I\'ve yet to really do the community college market, which I am interested in).   I\'m at Grand Valley on a 3 year gig as a visiting prof, and lots of colleges are doing this kind of thing to avoid hiring tenure faculty.  

A Ph.D in Rhet/Comp might do it (not creative writing).  Or, yes,  Community College.   In Iowa City, there\'s a shitload of some of very best poets and writers you\'d ever want to meet, sitting around drinking coffee or wandering the streets.  (that may very well be by choice, I do realize).  They say, if you pick up a snowball and throw it, you\'d hit a writer.  So few of my colleagues from Iowa have actually managed to get a teaching position, even those of us with books.  Universities can get the best of the very best to teach their poetry courses, and the rest of the best struggle.

Whew, you got me going....thanks for reading my essay, by the way!!

[D.O.D]

Sarah- You are absolutely right in reference to the discussion of degrees., even if I am your father. The topic should really be " tenure track ".  At my old stomping grounds, Central Michigan University, in particular, the art department, only adjunct positions are offered... amost never a tenure track. M.F.A. candidates come by the gross, begging. In fact the MFA degree is bing discontinued all over the country. It deserves the same merit as  a fishing licence.  DOD

[sarahd]

All true, except that MFA in creative writing programs: poetry, fiction, and nonfiction, are popping up in departments all over the country.  Just exploding.  Everybody\'s getting a useless MFA in creative writing now.  

Again, I should reiterate that the three years devoted to writing was a really wonderful experience.  So I have to say it was worth it for that.  And I\'ve accomplished alot since then.  But as for using and abusing teachers, it\'s a disgrace.  1500 dollars per course at some schools.  2500 at most.   You could make 18,000 or 20,000 a year, no health insurance, teaching 4 writing classes and reading 100\'s of papers a week.   Tenure positions (for MFA\'s) are for the elite few.
Okay, I\'ll shut up now.

[buswolley]

DOD, I'm a little confused are you suggesting that an MFA is equal to a fishing license?   I personally feel that they are worth something in academia, for the simple reason that a true MFA program should concentrate more on the creating art and less on history or theory.  Therefore, a faculty that incorporates both perspectives can provide their students a better rounded education.  If you have a faculty that is all about the technique and not the end product the art can get lost.  That argument also goes the other way, too much art not enough technique.  I guess I am lucky, even though I don't teach, Theatre still recognizes MFA's as a desirable degree.  I would think Art would be the same, correct me if I am wrong.  Creative writing sounds very cut throat even in academia, I feel for you Sarah.  

Just out of curiosity DOD, are you pro tenure track?  Many Colleges and Universities in Texas are opting for one year contracts.  I don't know which is worse getting tenure, sitting on your laurels, and never having to work to improve your teaching again, or fearing for your job year after year because you maybe released without cause.  

Sarah, I definitely agree with you working for $1500.00 a class in ridicules!  I also think it short changes the students, because an adjunct does not have the same culpability as a full time faculty

[sarahd]

Good point.   No one should expect anything but time to work on art/writing when going after an MFA, and that\'s all I wanted when I went after it.  We shouldnt bitch about the degree being no good, when the idea is to have that time to work.  Period.   Not use it as a means for finding a job.  I think.

Yeah, I like the idea of getting rid of the tenure system and offering renewable contracts.  Unfortunately, my three year one\'s not renewable.  

I wonder how we got going on this topic.  Must have been me.  

[D.O.D]

Buswolley=  You hit on all sides of the issue and very well, indeed. How could I be so stupid  as to get myself  back into this ancient discussion. I spent 20 years looking for answers and was relieved to get out. Pro tenure ? Mostly yes. The alternative  is usually ugly... adjunct, temps, etc.  The only worthy MFA  Grads are me and thee!  The MFA programs that I am familiar with are pretty lame, and the Final  product ( student) is mediocre . Usually there was seldom enough talent to sustain a program.  Fishing lilence? Yes.  DOD

[sarahd]

With a prestigious MFA, like mine, you can get invited to a lot of good parties too where you can talk for hours about what you\'re not writing.  

[oldfolkie]

"you can get invited to a lot of good parties too where you can talk for hours about what you\'re not writing"

LOL sarahd, is that really such an awful fate? As long as the parties are good ones?

Very interesting discussion about art in academe. Almost makes me glad my day job is in science [NOT in academe, thankfully] & I can devote my "real life" to stuff I love like music & writing. Al-most. There are days when I regret not becoming an FM radio DJ or a rambling folk musician. However, I DO like to eat!

buswolley was being kind when she complimented my poems, but, what the hey, here\'s the link:
http://poetsagainstthewar.org/displaypoem.asp?AuthorID=12098

I\'m working on a chapbook -- in the assembling material phase right now. Finally decided that I might as well do something with my overflowing bottom desk drawer. Yet to find a publisher who might be interested (surprise, surprise), but went to a local small press fair last weekend & got some info. Plus there\'s always lulu.com  

I\'ll let you guys know how it comes along.

[gkg]

I\'m working on a chapbook

  hey, cool oldfolkie!  i hope that comes to pass and that you give us all a heads up when it comes out.

not familiary with "lulu.com"... guess i\'ll have to wander over there and check what that\'s about.  i have mild regrets about what i didn\'t do in my youth, but that\'s far outweighed by the joys resulting from what i DID do and i try hard to keep that in mind... sometimes i forget.

sarahd - those parties are probably good fodder for an interesting thematic book - of course they might not like someone holding a mirror that close.  ones warts can be painful to acknowledge; much easier to point and laugh at someone else\'s.  

[oldfolkie]

gkg, any regrets I have are very mild indeed. I\'m certainly not in the first flush of youth, being the "wrong" side of 50, but life has been great so far & I\'m looking forward to more!

lulu.com is a self-e-publishing site that gives the option of hardcopy or CD-ROM, either or both, on demand. A step or 2 up from laser printer & stapler?

[gkg]

ah - i have laser printer and comb binder - surely that falls between the two?  

by the way, the only way to be the wrong side of 50 is to never make it that far.