Travis Dickerson Recording Studios Forum

Thanks to keagan2387 and phartacus for the support in this thread. I think I have said all I want to Solar...it\'s really like talking to a brick wall.

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You haven't taken anything from anyone. You did not take the CD. You downloaded a copy of the music, hurting no one.  

You really don\'t get it, do you?

You download a CD = you took the songs.
The songs = the artist\'s property.
The artist\'s property = something with a monetary value.
 
No matter how you take them without paying, whether you walk into a store and shoplift or go on a torrent
site, YOU HAVE STOLEN THEM. They belong to the artist, NOT YOU, and you don\'t have the right to do whatever you wish with them.

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If you steal the Mona Lisa, it's theft. If you print off a copy of the Mona Lisa from you're computer, it's not. You don't have to pay for the Mona Lisa to enjoy its art.

The Mona Lisa is in the public domain, and there are no rights restrictions on it. You can\'t compare it to something that is being offered commercially in 2007. Da Vinci really doesn\'t have to worry about paying for his bills right now, does he?

Public domain art, literature and music is quite different than that of an artist who is alive and actively working. Even so, there\'s a parallel: it completely puts the creators\' rights first and foremost, before the right of the public to have free access.  

In fact, art/writing/etc. cannot enter the public domain until a significant amount of time has elapsed from its creation--almost a full century. Also, the original creator must be dead for quite some time, and his or her estate cannot have re-registered it. The only real exception to this is if the creator him or herself freely and knowingly releases the work to the public domain.

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But I don't see why they should save up for gratification later when they could just get gratification now. That 13 year old kid needs his money for other things, and by the time he finally gets the doe, I'm sure they'll be out of print, and then he'd have to get one over E-Bay.

*shrug* we all have to make decisions in life. Part of being a responsible and mature human being is choosing your priorities and budgeting for what you want. If that 13 year old decides he doesn\'t want to spend his money on the CDs, he doesn\'t get the CDs. Simple.

When you decide you want something NOW and don\'t want to pay or work for it, it says a lot about your lack of maturity and character. Once you\'ve left toddlerhood, you should be able to handle the word NO and live without instant gratification. It\'s a CD. It\'s a luxury item. It\'s not air or water. You won\'t die without it.

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Oh, wait... people don't have the right to sell or share other people's art. So I guess we should make E-Bay illegal too.

This is the only thing you\'ve been right about. YOu don\'t have the right to sell other people\'s work. It\'s their property, not yours. They worked to create it, you didn\'t. Period. When you go into the studio and compose and record your own CD, you\'ll have the right to tell people what to do with it. You don\'t have the right to illegally distribute others\' property.

And your eBay analogy is flawed. If something\'s being sold on eBay, it\'s already been purchased by someone and is being REsold. The seller isn\'t making additional unauthorized copies of the product. It\'s the same as buying something at a flea market.

Torrents, on the other hand, are like shoplifting or getting stolen merchandise off the back of a truck. The person setting up the torrent has essentially set up a system to make unlimited copies of the work. And the recipient is not paying anything to receive goods of monetary value.

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Wrong. Theft is a bad thing because it hurts people, rips people off and takes money away from people. Downloading a CD you would never pay for in the first place is neither stealing a CD from the artist, nor stealing money from the artist. The artist loses nothing... not a CD because you aren\'t walking in a stealing a physical CD from him, and not any money, because even if you didn\'t download it he wouldn\'t get the money anyway, because you couldn\'t afford it in the first place and therefore could never have bought it.

That\'s, what, the fifth time I\'ve said that?

You lost this debate before you even began. I proved your argument wrong before you even said it. Stop wasting my time.

You have indeed said this several times, but your logic here is still seriously flawed.

Downloading a CD you would never pay for in the first place is neither stealing a CD from the artist, nor stealing money from the artist. The artist loses nothing... not a CD because you aren\'t walking in a stealing a physical CD from him

Ah, but yes, it is stealing. When you buy a CD, you\'re really not paying for the actual plastic disc, you\'re purchasing a personal copy of the content. The songs are the product, whether they are packaged in a tangible form such as a CD or as an mp3. If there is a set price for ownership of a copy of those songs, and you do not pay it, you\'ve committed an act of theft.

And intent is really irrelevant. It doesn\'t matter if you weren\'t planning on buying the album. You\'ve still taken something without paying for it.

Again, for that 13 year old kid who downloads albums because they want the music...sorry, again, no sympathy here. If they want it that badly, they should find a way to purchase it lawfully. Instead of looking for instant gratification, how about working to earn what you want? Or do you really think that in the real world, you\'ll just be able to take whatever you please, without repercussions?

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Did Buckethead clear all those music//movie/tv/cartoon samples he used on his albums and everything he reinterpeted on the guitar? We can play this game all day.  I bet you a C note he didn\'t.  You would lose that C Note in a heartbeat. Thus Mr Bucket used samples illegally of what? Intellectual Propert.y  Was he given the right to use it and authorized? No...Once again entering the grey zone. (Which we all do..it just depends how far we individually go)

Not.

Um, given the myriad lawsuits that have arisen from sampling over the past 15 years, and given the fact that Buckethead\'s a longtime professional, ten to one, everything that\'s been used has either been cleared and paid for appropriately, is in the public domain, or has fallen under fair use restrictions. These things happen behind the scenes. Bucket\'s own music is licensed by BMI, so I\'d trust that he is fully familiar with rights requirements.

Oh, and playing cover tunes and interpreting other people\'s music during a live performance falls under different restrictions...most of the time the venue has a license with BMI or ASCAP so it\'s up to them to pay, not the artist.

Quote"copyright is a fact. copyright infringement is illegal.

there is no way to take on that with a philosophical / ethical discourse.

its a crime. period."

Yes, it is a crime. But those of us who don\'t blindly follow what people with authority say and actually think for ourselves can have mature conversations about these things. If anything should be questioned, it should be law. Changed, maybe not. But ALWAYS questioned. I don\'t see how you could actually believe this. Philosophical/ethical discourse is the only way to deduce if these laws are right or not... and I assure you, just because America says it\'s wrong, doesn\'t make it wrong.

Our government is not infallible.

true enough. laws aren\'t always right. But let\'s step away from the law for a moment. Let\'s consider all the ways you personally screw over others when you download entire CDs.  Even if you were a complete anarchist, I\'d suspect that on some level you might care about how your actions affect others, particularly those artists whom you claim to enjoy and respect.

The artists aren\'t doing this as a hobby. This is their profession. This is how they pay their bills. When they record music, they are working. The songs and CDs they create are their property. They have the right to be paid for their work.

You wouldn\'t expect a chef in a restaurant to give away his meals for free. You wouldn\'t expect a dentist to pull your teeth without payment. So why would you expect an artist to give away their work for free and smile about it?

When you dl entire CDs from indie artists like Bucket, you really are taking money right out of their pockets. In addition, you\'re also screwing over the rest of us. Just as shoplifting results in higher prices in stores, if the artist loses CD sales to torrent downloads, it will lead to higher prices and less music.  

"But I want to hear a sample!" is not a valid argument either. THere are plenty of places to hear Bucket without ripping off entire CDs: his MySpace, all the YouTube links where he\'s kindly allowed people to tape his shows, his own site, this site, etc.

"but I can\'t afford it!" So? Life\'s not fair, and we don\'t always get everything we want. That doesn\'t mean you have to resort to theft. Get one CD instead of the whole set. save up. Even if you\'re a kid, you can always babysit, shovel snow, deliver papers, whatever. Of course, that means you\'d have to take the high road and EARN what you want, instead of taking the easy way out and stealing.  

Yeah, there are always going to be people who download complete CDs. just realize that you are in fact stealing, and don\'t try to make it into some noble gesture of rebellion. you\'re taking something that does not belong to you without paying for it. dress it up however you wish, but realize you really are negatively affecting the artist.

no worries at all Travis. I\'m excited just to hear the music and have a monogrammed CD, the number\'s not a biggie. I can\'t even imagine what a massive undertaking this entire project has been for everyone.

Same here. I ordered one ISO CD and Pepper\'s Ghost, because I really couldn\'t swing the whole set right now. i\'m looking forward to both CDs!

I\'m also curious if any of the other singles have received their orders. Also...how are they doing the single Cds? are they going to break up numbered sets, or are they going to be done individually, or...?